AngryFrenchGuy

Quebec’s Bizarre Segregated School System

with 161 comments

Montreal English Schools

In 1969, just a couple of years after the United States government had to send in the army to protect black students being integrated into Little Rock, Arkansas schools in spite of the violent opposition of a certain segment of the white population, the municipality of Saint-Léonard on the Montreal island went through it’s own episodes of violent riots over the integration of minorities.

The only difference is that in the case of Saint-Léonard, the white, French-speaking, majority was rioting against segregation, not in support of it.

Québec’s segregated school system is as old as Canada. It was a compromise of sorts between the Protestant industrialists of Montreal and the all powerful Catholic clergy who agreed that the province would have two completely separate and independently run school systems : one Protestant, one Catholic, which with time morphed into French and English-language systems. The dual school systems were constitutionalised in 1867 and, to this day, Québec is the only Canadian province constitutionally obligated to maintain « separate but equal » schools.

The Parti Québécois did it’s best in 1977 to create modern integrated system for all children, regardless of their origin, religion or home language.  Bill 101 established that all of Québec’s children would from now on study  and receive their education in French, the majority’s language.

Except for Québec’s English-speaking minority, of course, who’s right to it’s own parallel school system was protected.  To this day, anyone who has studied at least one year in an English school somewhere in Canada is allowed to opt out of the majority’s school system.

This, of course, is rationalised on the principal of some supposed right of children to receive education in their language.

That’s interesting because, at least in Montreal, the majority of English-speaking youth are not studying in English at all!

According to the English Montreal School Board as many as three out of four primary school students spend most of their schoolday in classes taught in French.  The so-called “core” program where the majority of classes are taught in English is the least popular of all the school board’s options and is being abandoned by parents who demand immersion and billitteracy curriculum for their children.

Even Québec’s stuffy English Private Schools that only a generation ago prepared kids in penny loafers to rule the world in English are now falling over themselves to provide rich people with the French the publicly-funded system can’t afford.  The students of Westmount’s Selwyn Housenow spend between 50% and 80% of their class time studying in French and have even added a French verse to their school hymn! (Which, I belive, was the number 3 demand in the FLQ manifesto.)

Outside Montreal the situation is even stranger with many English schools having a majority of French students and very few actual Anglos exercising their right to receive an English-language education in Québec.  In Québec City close to 60% of the students in English schools are Francophones.  This is possible because French-speaking, or for that matter, any family that has obtained a certificate of eligibility to English schools through, for example, a mixed marriage, can keep passing the privilege along to further generations until the End of Time.

(For example I posses one of the fabled Certificates of eligibility even though I was raised in a French-speaking household because my father was an alumni of the very English Lower Canada College. Had I exercised that right, I would have been able to pass it on to my descendants, regardless of the language they speak at home, as long as at least one kid from every generation studied for at least one year in an English school somewhere in Canada.

I, however, decided not to follow my father’s footsteps in the land of crew cuts (and also shattered my mother’s dream that I would study with the Jesuits of Brébeuf College like Pierre Elliot Trudeau) and once the ultra-nationalist unionized separatist teachers of l’École Notre-Dame-de-Grâce primary school were done thoroughly brainwashing my young impressionable mind, I decided to go to a multicultural French-language public High School instead.

So my family no longer belongs to the elusive society of the eligible…)

Hey, it’s not that it’s a bad idea for Québec’s English-speaking kids to take classes in French. What’s profoundly bizarre is the concept of English-speaking children immersing themselves in French in schools with no French kids two blocks away from an actual French school…

As even the Montreal Gazette reported, the result is technically bilingual kids who don’t know any French people and who are uncomfortable ordering a burger in French at McDonalds.

On the French side there is growing tension between proponents and opponents to the kind of bilingual programs that have become common on the English side.  While there is a lot of demand for them, opponents feel that the French schools’ mission of integrating immigrants into Québec society, especially in Montréal, could be seriously compromised if more English was introduced in the schools.

As a result, many French-speaking families in Montreal are massively abandoning the public school system for private schools that offer, among other things, better English classes.  Between 2001 and 2006 the number of students in Montreal’s private schools leaped by 30%.

All this together leads to a profoundly dyslexic school arrangement.  Immigrants to Québec are now intergrating themselves into Québec society in schools with no French-speaking Québécois, while Québec Francophones send their children to private schools.  Montréal Anglos are building their own parallel French school network with no French students while Francophones in the rest of the province are keeping an English school system alive even though there are no more actual English-speaking students.

Written by angryfrenchguy

August 18, 2009 at 3:04 pm

161 Responses

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  1. “Being the colonized/conquered makes us **RIGHT**. Period. (Yes, this means you are **WRONG**). And I’m not the one who says that, that’s the judgement of History.”

    I hope this was sarcastic. Ever heard of “l’histoire est écrite par les gagnants?”.

    “No fucking way. The britshit never did anything for free. Every single move of them was carefully calculated to bring the maximum immediate reward. To them.”

    Hope this was sarcastic too. Otherwise, it sheds a dark light on the extent of your paranoia.

    “And just to see how the britshit are so shortsighted, the necessary accommodation of the scatholic religion in Canada by softening their anti-scatholic discrimination laws scared the shit out of the US colonies and was a factor that pushed them to rebellion.”

    I don’t really believe that to be true, so I’ll use an argument you’ve used before : you are **WRONG**!

    “The incompetent family compact that rules Canada didn’t take long to notice that the devout scatholics would refrain from engaging in commerce, because for scatholics, making profits is a one-way ticket to hell (I still recall being taught at school that “money is the devil’s dung” — yes, that was actually written in a schoolbook of mine — «L’argent, c’est le crottin du diable»).”

    So basically… your argument is that the Brits worked with the catholic church, trading the control of faithful sheeps for economic monopoly. I’ll modify your story here : yes, the Brits had control over the economy mostly and foremost because they ruled this country. This means that lands are owned by English Lords, and therefore Brits were more likely to be rich than francophone. This, of course, is a part of our history where we were, indeed, being exploited. It lasted for a long while, and up until the 1950s, anglophones pretty much controled Montreal and the economy. I’ve never argued that the English occupation was a God send. My grandfather lived in those years, and had his share of troubles with the anglos.

    But at some point, you have to realize that today’s anglophones are not the same as yesterday’s invaders. Amerindians were here first, and were invaded by the French and the English. Does that mean that we should all move away from Quebec today and give them back “their” land? Does that mean we should all be raised in Amerindian schools? No. At some point in time, you have to put yesterday’s grudges behind and focus on peaceful cohabitation.

    “Reality check: it was done until 12 years ago, when the britshit north america act was amended to allow Québec to kick the scatholic church out of the control of education.”

    Twelve years ago, I graduated from high school in a private school formerly administered by catholic munks. The munks still owned half of the building, but were never seen inside the school premises and had stopped bothering with the school administration for decades. The fact that the law was modified only 12 years ago doesn’t mean that the catholic clergy had complete control over education until that time. If anything, the modification done 12 years probably only normalized a situation that had existed for a long time.

    “12 years ago, that’s AFTER the second referendum, you know, the one we almost won?”

    And France ALMOST had total control over the American continent at the beginning of the 17th century. What’s your point?

    “No, it’s called observation of the facts.”

    I think what you meant is : observation of the facts through a very distorted glass, with a very biased state of mind.

    “Obviously you cannot be educated.”

    Donc l’argument ici, j’imagine que c’est quelque chose du genre : “tu es un colonisé irrécupérable?” Et tu dis que JE vais finir par manquer d’argument? Traiter quelqu’un de “colonisé”, ce n’est pas un argument. C’est, dans l’ordre :
    1- un manque de savoir vivre
    2- un manque d’originalité
    3- un manque de confiance en soi assez évident

    Have fun with that!

    Vinster171

    August 20, 2009 at 1:04 pm

  2. Your logic is completely flawed :

    “No, the reason is that there are some rhodesians, à la Kondaks here, who want to stay in their little english ghetto.”

    … and yet, when some say that Quebeckers want to keep staying in their little French ghetto called Québec, we scream “murder”, “discrimination” and “stupid square-heads”. Québec is to Canada what Anglo communities are to Québec. It’s as simple as that.

    Vinster171

    August 20, 2009 at 1:10 pm

  3. “No, the reason is that there are some rhodesians, à la Kondaks here, who want to stay in their little english ghetto.”

    Jean, old buddy old pal,

    You know, if you apply the same rules to everyone, you can make a claim that Quebec Francophones are arrogant elitists who are refusing to integrate with the rest of the continent, and instead cling to their culture which they think is superior to others (as you explicitly stated a few times). You can make a claim it’s the Francophones who choose to self-segregate and live in their “ghetto” of 7 million, surrounded by a 300+ million majority.

    I say Quebec Francophone culture is worth maintaining, but the right to “opt out of it” must be respected. It will always come down to the freedom of choice, and because of Quebec’s geopolitical situation, English will always be that second option. Quebec is not France, or some Swiss canton.

    7 vs 300+. Consider that for a moment, monsieur **right**.

    allophone

    August 20, 2009 at 1:18 pm

  4. Ever heard of “l’histoire est écrite par les gagnants?”.

    ¿DUH? Of course. But, as the “losers”, we know what is not told by the “winners”’ “history”.

    “No fucking way. The britshit never did anything for free. Every single move of them was carefully calculated to bring the maximum immediate reward. To them.”
    Hope this was sarcastic too. Otherwise, it sheds a dark light on the extent of your paranoia.

    Okay. Please list “good” things the brits have done to the people they have conquered, all over the empire.

    “And just to see how the britshit are so shortsighted, the necessary accommodation of the scatholic religion in Canada by softening their anti-scatholic discrimination laws scared the shit out of the US colonies and was a factor that pushed them to rebellion.”
    I don’t really believe that to be true, so I’ll use an argument you’ve used before : you are **WRONG**!

    Well, I will use an argument you don’t seem to be used to: “facts”:

    In 1774, Parliament passed the Quebec Act, taking the enlightened position that the Catholic Church could remain the official church of Quebec. This appalled and terrified many colonists, who assumed this to be a British attempt to subjugate them religiously by allowing the loathsome Catholics to expand into the colonies. Colonial newspapers railed against the Popish threat. The Pennsylvania Gazette said the legislation would now allow "these dogs of Hell" to "erect their Heads and triumph within our Borders." The Boston Evening Post reported that the step was "for the execution of this hellish plan" to organize 4,000 Canadian Catholics for an attack on America. In Rhode Island, every single issue of the Newport Mercury from October 2, 1774 to March 20, 1775 contained “at least one invidious reference to the Catholic religion of the Canadians," according to historian Charles Metzger.
    (From “How Anti-Catholicism Helped Fuel the American Revolution”)

    (That’s just the result of about 5 minutes of googling, so you are welcome to seek more examples).

    So basically… your argument is that the Brits worked with the catholic church, trading the control of faithful sheeps for economic monopoly. I’ll modify your story here : yes, the Brits had control over the economy mostly and foremost because they ruled this country. This means that lands are owned by English Lords, and therefore Brits were more likely to be rich than francophone.

    Many of the 1837 rebellion leaders were businessmen (in addition to jurists and intellectuals). Those were decimated and the scatholic church had a golden opportunity to cast it’s net over the french population, and was rewarded in 1867 by being granted the monopoly on education.
    As of land ownership, there were no landlords like in Ireland. The seigneurial system had no serf-peasants; the farmers toiled their own soil; the lords merely owned the mills and sometimes the ovens.

    This, of course, is a part of our history where we were, indeed, being exploited. It lasted for a long while, and up until the 1950s, anglophones pretty much controled Montreal and the economy. I’ve never argued that the English occupation was a God send. My grandfather lived in those years, and had his share of troubles with the anglos.

    So? Why are you siding with the english? They certainly don’t need any help, and certainly not from the french, if I can construe that you are french.

    But at some point, you have to realize that today’s anglophones are not the same as yesterday’s invaders. Amerindians were here first, and were invaded by the French and the English. Does that mean that we should all move away from Quebec today and give them back “their” land?

    When we came, the indians agreed shared the land with us. Our respective civilization were sufficiently different for them to mingle without much conflitct; a farmer did not mind indians hunting on his land as long as his crops were left alone, and he would join the indians on the hunt pretty often.
    But when the english came, they brought with them their constipated notions of private property and promptly put the indians in reserves. They simply would not fathom that two civilization may mingle without adverse effects; for them, private property is overtly sacred and no man shall thread on any soil but it’s owner.

    Does that mean we should all be raised in Amerindian schools? No. At some point in time, you have to put yesterday’s grudges behind and focus on peaceful cohabitation.

    Which is what we do with the indians. Only in Québec indians are taught their ancestral languages in schools, so 80% of indians in Québec speak their language, as opposed to 20% in the rest of Canada.

    Twelve years ago, I graduated from high school in a private school formerly administered by catholic munks. The munks still owned half of the building, but were never seen inside the school premises and had stopped bothering with the school administration for decades. The fact that the law was modified only 12 years ago doesn’t mean that the catholic clergy had complete control over education until that time. If anything, the modification done 12 years probably only normalized a situation that had existed for a long time.

    Monks might have been put out of the schools, but nevertheless, the inacceptable division in scatholic and protestant schools continued.

    “12 years ago, that’s AFTER the second referendum, you know, the one we almost won?”
    And France ALMOST had total control over the American continent at the beginning of the 17th century. What’s your point?

    My point is that there is an elaborate system of domination put upon us by the english, a system so subtle that many people are being fooled that they are not controlled.

    “No, it’s called observation of the facts.”
    I think what you meant is : observation of the facts through a very distorted glass, with a very biased state of mind.

    If there is a distorted glass, there is one of political correctness, and I’m not the one looking through it.

    “Obviously you cannot be educated.”
    Donc l’argument ici, j’imagine que c’est quelque chose du genre : “tu es un colonisé irrécupérable?” Et tu dis que JE vais finir par manquer d’argument? Traiter quelqu’un de “colonisé”, ce n’est pas un argument. C’est, dans l’ordre :
    1- un manque de savoir vivre
    2- un manque d’originalité
    3- un manque de confiance en soi assez évident
    Have fun with that!

    1– c’est la vérité, on dirait bien.
    2– ce sont les faits.
    3– un manque de confiance qui vient qu’on se fait dire par les anglais depuis 250 ans que nous sommes de la merde?
    Si vous agissez comme un colonisé, ne vous attendez pas à ce que jamais personne ne vienne vous dire vos quatre vérités.

    Jean Naimard

    August 20, 2009 at 5:54 pm

  5. “Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.”

    Jean,

    No matter how thin you slice it , its still baloney.

    My business partner, son of Italian immigrants, himself born in Italy, was refused admission in French school ( Ville Émard to be precise) around 1962 and was re-directed to the English Catholic school run by Irish priests. His case was typical at the time.

    Your conspiracy theory is riddled with holes the size of beach balls. So the big bad English were so clever as to be able to predict that the Quebec clergy would refuse Italians in the sixties… get real buddy youre barking up the wrong tree here.

    Brainwashing the French to stay out of business, thats pretty rich. Give us facts not emotional opinions.

    Your

    Dave

    August 20, 2009 at 5:55 pm

  6. … and yet, when some say that Quebeckers want to keep staying in their little French ghetto called Québec, we scream “murder”, “discrimination” and “stupid square-heads”. Québec is to Canada what Anglo communities are to Québec. It’s as simple as that.

    No.
    One of the main reasons why we want our sovereigny is simply because we do not want to be restricted in the little narrow anglo-saxon view of the world in our international dealings which is the norm as we are in Canada.
    If you’ll recall, back in the 1970’s, the Parti-Québécois slogan was «Pour un Québec ouvert sur le monde» (“for a Québec open on the world”).

    Jean Naimard

    August 20, 2009 at 5:57 pm

  7. Jean, old buddy old pal,

    I am no one’s buddy.

    You know, if you apply the same rules to everyone, you can make a claim that Quebec Francophones are arrogant elitists who are refusing to integrate with the rest of the continent,

    We do not refuse to “integrate with the rest of the continent” (which is overwhelminly latin, by the way), but we refused to be bound in the little narrow world of the anglo-saxons who dominate the said continent.

    and instead cling to their culture which they think is superior to others (as you explicitly stated a few times). You can make a claim it’s the Francophones who choose to self-segregate and live in their “ghetto” of 7 million, surrounded by a 300+ million majority.

    By throwing us in the clutches of the scatholic church, the britshit insured our “self” segregation (the strongest chains are those of the mind) in order to keep us insulated from the currents of thoughts going on throughout the World, in order to better dominate us.

    I say Quebec Francophone culture is worth maintaining, but the right to “opt out of it” must be respected.

    Well, if you want to opt-out, you just need to dial 2-20-401. Like any normal country on Earth, we do not accept that some people “opt out” of our culture while in our country.

    It will always come down to the freedom of choice, and because of Quebec’s geopolitical situation, English will always be that second option. Quebec is not France, or some Swiss canton.
    7 vs 300+. Consider that for a moment, monsieur **right**.

    So, by your “reasoning”, Sweden should become russian, because it’s paltry 9 million inhabitants are obviously no match for the neighbouring 143 million russians?
    Indeed, Québec is not France: it’s not a sovereign country. And it’s not a swiss canton either: in Switzerland, no one shoves his language down the throat of others. No, Québec is a britshit colony and we have to speak white.
    9 vs 142+. Consider that for a moment, monsieur **WRONG**.
    No, all you want is to be english in a french country, without having to bother with that pesky french fact.

    Jean Naimard

    August 20, 2009 at 6:08 pm

  8. My business partner, son of Italian immigrants, himself born in Italy, was refused admission in French school ( Ville Émard to be precise) around 1962 and was re-directed to the English Catholic school run by Irish priests. His case was typical at the time.

    Of course! The scatholic church did not want us to be contaminated by europeans who might bring the dreaded communism in their emotional baggage!
    This was calculated by design.

    Your conspiracy theory is riddled with holes the size of beach balls. So the big bad English were so clever as to be able to predict that the Quebec clergy would refuse Italians in the sixties… get real buddy youre barking up the wrong tree here.

    Well, it’s a pretty well predictable outcome. Europe has been in the throes of an horrenduous war where hideous ideologies battled head-on, and communism had gained a foothold over half of Europe, enslaving it’s populations in order to feed the soviet orgre.
    The result that the few remaining democraties had strong communist parties that were extremely influential until the collapse of the iron curtain.
    So you don’t want to take chances corrupting the mind of the youth with strangers who might have come in contact with the filthy disease of communism, lest they stop listening to the priests!!!

    Brainwashing the French to stay out of business, thats pretty rich. Give us facts not emotional opinions.

    I given you the facts. You are quite welcome to refute them. I will not hold my breath, though.

    Jean Naimard

    August 20, 2009 at 6:13 pm

  9. So, if I read AFG correctly, we should scrap French schools in the other Canadian provinces and have JUST English schools since they make up the majority? Hmmm, very interesting.

    Line

    August 20, 2009 at 6:29 pm

  10. Well, the odds are not on the francos side are they.

    Numbers are numbers. Without the support of the french in Canada by the federal government french would quickly be assimilated. Oh sure, you would have the french factor, but it would diminish year after year as it is the current trend.

    Quebec should likely separate and then any of this debate would come to a closure and you could all find something else to debate. Of course, this will likely never happen as there are those in Quebec who ultimately know the end effect.

    La francaise avant tout en Quebec! apres tout.

    On the schools, well, it is clearly obvious to me that french is taught in the english schools (at least in the schools that I have experience with). Even in NDG in the english schools french is mandatory in the first 4 years. South shore similar.

    Interesting that my grandchildren go to an english school and play with the next door neighbors children who go to a french school. Segregation you say…you bet.

    Good, don’t know. Bad, don’t know. Politics and the language debate carried out to the detrement of the children. How unfortunate.

    The debate on this site always comes down to language…so have the kids learn both…let them decide what language they will use in their day to day lives. What would be wrong with that?

    Jean, you haven’t been taking your anglo hating medication lately… Je me souveiens, what is it you want to remember. Something from 150 years ago that has no bearing on the present. Unless you feel threatened in Montreal with all the english being spoken. I suppose all those who speak english in Montreal should take the 401, right. Bonne chance avec ca..

    ABP

    August 20, 2009 at 8:00 pm

  11. “I am no one’s buddy”

    Doesn’t surprise me with your attitude!

    ABP

    August 20, 2009 at 8:03 pm

  12. “I given you the facts. You are quite welcome to refute them. I will not hold my breath, though.” J.Naimard

    Sorry but I can’t distinguish any facts among your opinionated diatribes against “les autres” Now all of a sudden its the fear of communism , please try and stick to the same argument for more than a heartbeat.

    So its the fault of the English that the French-Canadian clergy feared communism ? Is that your facts ?
    What is there to refute ? The ravings of an extreme nationalist who blames absolutely everything on others and wont take any responsibility for anything ? Its like arguing with my cat.

    Dave

    August 20, 2009 at 8:09 pm

  13. Well, the odds are not on the francos side are they.

    Welcome to the discussion, Captain Obvious!

    Numbers are numbers. Without the support of the french in Canada by the federal government french would quickly be assimilated. Oh sure, you would have the french factor, but it would diminish year after year as it is the current trend.

    “Support of the federal government”? Are you kidding? The same federal government that is anglicizing the immigrants? The only way we have been able to turn back the tide of minorization through anglicizing immigrants is with law 101, which drove home the message that one shall not expect to live in Québec without knowing french.

    Quebec should likely separate and then any of this debate would come to a closure and you could all find something else to debate. Of course, this will likely never happen as there are those in Quebec who ultimately know the end effect.

    Aaaaahyes, I’ve heard that before, plenty of times. The “end effect” of “the economy collapsing because only the english know how to yadda, yadda, yadda”.
    Doesn’t work anymore, pal. You gonna have to try to find another bugaboo to scare us.

    La francaise avant tout en Quebec! apres tout.

    Pardon your french? Because it really needs to.

    Good, don’t know. Bad, don’t know. Politics and the language debate carried out to the detrement of the children. How unfortunate.

    OMG! Won’t somebody think of the children? Imagine! Children learning french! Oh! The humanity!

    The debate on this site always comes down to language…

    Helloooo!!!!! What else do you expect on a blog named  “angryFRENCHguy”??? Urdu? Cockney?

    so have the kids learn both…let them decide what language they will use in their day to day lives. What would be wrong with that?

    Well, everyone is taught both french and english. Even the immigrants! So what are you complaining about?

    Jean, you haven’t been taking your anglo hating medication lately… Je me souveiens, what is it you want to remember. Something from 150 years ago that has no bearing on the present. Unless you feel threatened in Montreal with all the english being spoken.

    Well, yes, we are threatened. If immigrants don’t get the unequivocal message that they have to speak french here, we’re back to square one with the immigration that is designed to minorize us.

    I suppose all those who speak english in Montreal should take the 401, right. Bonne chance avec ca..

    Your reading comprehension skills are appaling. I just said that those who are not happy with Montréal being french should take the 401.
    401 or 101.

    Jean Naimard

    August 20, 2009 at 8:28 pm

  14. You’re welcome.

    Jean Naimard

    August 20, 2009 at 8:29 pm

  15. Sorry but I can’t distinguish any facts among your opinionated diatribes against “les autres”

    Well, that’s because you’re biased against recognized them, as it exposes the english as the villains.

    Now all of a sudden its the fear of communism , please try and stick to the same argument for more than a heartbeat.

    What part of a justification for the refusal of the scatholic schools to accept italians don’t you understand?

    So its the fault of the English that the French-Canadian clergy feared communism ? Is that your facts ?

    I never said that; communism always has been against religion, so it’s pretty much a given that the opposite is true. And yes, that’s a fact used to explain why the scatholic schools refused italians.

    What is there to refute ?

    There is nothing to refute, because my facts are solidly provable.

    The ravings of an extreme nationalist who blames absolutely everything on others and wont take any responsibility for anything? Its like arguing with my cat.

    Ah, the raving of a personal responsibility-worshipping english. It’s like arguing with my wall.

    Jean Naimard

    August 20, 2009 at 8:33 pm

  16. ““Support of the federal government”? Are you kidding? The same federal government that is anglicizing the immigrants? The only way we have been able to turn back the tide of minorization through anglicizing immigrants is with law 101, which drove home the message that one shall not expect to live in Québec without knowing french.”

    Oh please Jean, the immigrants have no option but to attend french schools in Quebec. You can lead a horse or “force” a horse to water…He might, however, not drink if the water is not in his best interest. Can you provide some other logical argument for your comment other than to blame everything on others.

    “Well, everyone is taught both french and english. Even the immigrants! So what are you complaining about?”

    What are you complaining about Jean, if it is as you say. You should have no probleme, right? So what is your problem?

    “Doesn’t work anymore, pal. You gonna have to try to find another bugaboo to scare us”

    If there is no fear why have you not already left? Could it be the big fat pile of money Quebec extracts from Canada every year!!?

    “OMG! Won’t somebody think of the children? Imagine! Children learning french! Oh! The humanity”

    Obvious to me you don’t give a shit. You even have kids? or grand kids or any semblance of a real life?

    “Well, yes, we are threatened. If immigrants don’t get the unequivocal message that they have to speak french here, we’re back to square one with the immigration that is designed to minorize us”

    Let them speak what they want, if they are taught both as you have claimed, then they can decide…Right…

    “Your reading comprehension skills are appaling. I just said that those who are not happy with Montréal being french should take the 401.
    401 or 101.”

    Obviously they have not decided to leave so I guess you are stuck with those who wish to speak english in Montreal and there is fuck all you are going to do about it, is there? You cold of course separate and then come down on the english language and ban it, couldnt you? That might not go over with those opposed to ethnic cleansing. You should really take a deep breath and get some drugs to help with your anger management. Must be awful to go through life with such a jaded attitude and hatred for anything or anybody that doesn’t quite agree with you.

    That being said, you have a good night.

    ABP

    August 20, 2009 at 8:56 pm

  17. “You’re welcome.”

    For what, agreeing with you that you have no friends. Sad person that you appear to be Jean.

    ABP

    August 20, 2009 at 9:02 pm

  18. “Okay. Please list “good” things the brits have done to the people they have conquered, all over the empire.”

    You are laughable. List good things that ANY colonial country has done for the people they’ve conquered? The French were in no way better than the English with that regard. And I guess we shouldn’t mention the Spanish or the Portuguese.

    “Many of the 1837 rebellion leaders were businessmen (in addition to jurists and intellectuals).”

    And many of them were anglos. Funny how that fact is not mentioned very often. And I did the anti-catholicism was the biggest reason why the 13 Colonies were pushed to rebellion. It might have served a purpose, of course, and act as fuel, but the fire was already there.

    “So? Why are you siding with the english?”

    Are you so short-sighted that you still see anglos as ennemies? When I look at people from the West-Island that are from English descent, that have lived here for over 200 years, I see citizens of Quebec, not ennemies. You need to take your pills dude.

    “When we came, the indians agreed shared the land with us. Our respective civilization were sufficiently different for them to mingle without much conflitct; a farmer did not mind indians hunting on his land as long as his crops were left alone, and he would join the indians on the hunt pretty often”

    … and everything was perfect in the perfectest of world! I bet there where also small fairies throwing flower petals in front of those French settlers! Were they pink with small blueish dots? Were they killed by the big bad anglos when they came about?

    “Which is what we do with the indians. Only in Québec indians are taught their ancestral languages in schools, so 80% of indians in Québec speak their language, as opposed to 20% in the rest of Canada.”

    Yes, and look how successful that is! Amerindians sure found a way to blend with the francophones while retaining their culture, right? Oh wait… aren’t the Amerindians threatening to separate from Quebec if it becomes a country? Well… I guess they’re just being ungrateful, right?

    “My point is that there is an elaborate system of domination put upon us by the english, a system so subtle that many people are being fooled that they are not controlled.”

    It’s like THE MATRIX DUDE!! Nobody can see it, BUT IT’S THERE and it’s CONTROLLING YOUR LIFE!!

    “Si vous agissez comme un colonisé, ne vous attendez pas à ce que jamais personne ne vienne vous dire vos quatre vérités.”

    Des fois, je me dis que je préfère encore me faire traiter de colonisé pour un imbécile dans ton genre plutôt que d’agir comme un ostie de côlon. Et oui, je suis francophone, Québécois de souche et fier de l’être. Je ne suis juste pas resté coincé 150 en arrière dans l’histoire comme toi.

    Vinster171

    August 20, 2009 at 10:48 pm

  19. Comme t’es français, y’a pas de raison que je te réponde en rosbif.

    You are laughable. List good things that ANY colonial country has done for the people they’ve conquered? The French were in no way better than the English with that regard. And I guess we shouldn’t mention the Spanish or the Portuguese.

    Les français étaient bien mieux que les anglais ou les espagnols; nous sommes les seuls qui n’ont pas exterminé les indiens. Au contraire, la Nouvelle France a été fondée pour les évangéliser, ce qui à l’époque signifiait qu’on les considérait comme nos égaux.
     

    Are you so short-sighted that you still see anglos as ennemies? When I look at people from the West-Island that are from English descent, that have lived here for over 200 years, I see citizens of Quebec, not ennemies. You need to take your pills dude.

    Des «citoyens du Québec» qui se câlissent complètement de nous, se considèrent canadian et qui votent systématiquement contre nous? Moi, dans mon livre, c’est des ennemis.

    … and everything was perfect in the perfectest of world! I bet there where also small fairies throwing flower petals in front of those French settlers! Were they pink with small blueish dots? Were they killed by the big bad anglos when they came about?

    Non, ils étaient verts avec des pois mauve-cramoisis.

    “Which is what we do with the indians. Only in Québec indians are taught their ancestral languages in schools, so 80% of indians in Québec speak their language, as opposed to 20% in the rest of Canada.”
    Yes, and look how successful that is! Amerindians sure found a way to blend with the francophones while retaining their culture, right?

    Vous auriez intérêt à aller faire un tour sur la Côte-Nord.

    Oh wait… aren’t the Amerindians threatening to separate from Quebec if it becomes a country? Well… I guess they’re just being ungrateful, right?

    Vous devriez lire autre-chose que Zie Gazette (daß Monträlrhödesische Zeitung); les chefs indiens qui disent ça sont placés là par le fédéral au mépris de leurs traditions ancestrales, et ils ne sont pas assez siphonnés pour contredire leur commenditaire…

    It’s like THE MATRIX DUDE!! Nobody can see it, BUT IT’S THERE and it’s CONTROLLING YOUR LIFE!!

    Vous n’avez pas pris la pilule, mais bu le kool-aid…

    “Si vous agissez comme un colonisé, ne vous attendez pas à ce que jamais personne ne vienne vous dire vos quatre vérités.”
    Des fois, je me dis que je préfère encore me faire traiter de colonisé pour un imbécile dans ton genre plutôt que d’agir comme un ostie de côlon. Et oui, je suis francophone, Québécois de souche et fier de l’être. Je ne suis juste pas resté coincé 150 en arrière dans l’histoire comme toi.

    L’hostie de colon, c’est celui qui liche le cul des anglais comme tu le fais. Si tu t’imagines que les anglais vont te donner plus de nanan parce que tu les flatte dans le sens du poil, tu te trompes énormément. Ils vont te donner des miettes et vont rire dans ton dos en belle bande d’hypocrites qu’ils sont, avant d’y planter un couteau. Comme ils disent, «been there, done that». Si t’étais moindrement fier d’être français, tu n’aurais pas ta langue bien ancrée dans le cul des anglais.
    En France, pendant l’occupation, il y avait plein de petits crétins comme toi qui pactisaient avec l’occupant. À la libération, on s’est occupé d’eux.
    Les côlons qui sont fédéralistes, ce sont des français qui ne connaissent pas les anglais.

    Jean Naimard

    August 20, 2009 at 11:37 pm

  20. In politics or in business, there can be no friends.

    Jean Naimard

    August 20, 2009 at 11:37 pm

  21. Oh please Jean, the immigrants have no option but to attend french schools in Quebec.

    Yes, this is now. This wasn’t the case 35 years ago. And despite that they have to go to french schools, the attraction of english is very strong, so it’s an unending battle that is not helped by the unwillingness of the current assimilationist federalist government to do anything about it.

    You can lead a horse or “force” a horse to water…He might, however, not drink if the water is not in his best interest. Can you provide some other logical argument for your comment other than to blame everything on others.

    I put the blame squarely where it lies. The english have a deliberate policy of minorizing the french through immigration. To this day, immigrants are blatantly told by immigration officials to disregard Québec language laws.

    What are you complaining about Jean, if it is as you say. You should have no probleme, right? So what is your problem?

    My problem is that the english are still attempting to minorize us, despite law 101.
    In a real, normal, ordinary country such as Switzerland or even Belgium, one linguistic group is not trying to eliminate another.

    If there is no fear why have you not already left?

    The reason is the 300,000 voters who voted in the referendum despite not being residents of Québec.

    Could it be the big fat pile of money Quebec extracts from Canada every year!!?

    Money that comes from our tax dollars? It’s funny, if we’re so “expensive” for Canada, why do they adamantly do their darnedness to prevent us from leaving? Clearly, Canada gets more than it “puts” in Québec.

    Obvious to me you don’t give a shit. You even have kids? or grand kids or any semblance of a real life?

    I don’t give a shit towards tools of our own disappearance.

    Let them speak what they want, if they are taught both as you have claimed, then they can decide…Right…

    Actually, no. If they speak english, it’s back to square one all over again: the english don’t have to learn french.

    Obviously they have not decided to leave so I guess you are stuck with those who wish to speak english in Montreal and there is fuck all you are going to do about it, is there?

    I can push for stronger measures to insure the proeminence of french.

    You cold of course separate and then come down on the english language and ban it, couldnt you?

    There would be no need to do so once separate, because Québec would be unequivocally a french country, and no more federal government to fuckup things.

    That might not go over with those opposed to ethnic cleansing.

    The ethnic cleansing that has been going on in the rest of Canada that has basically reduced the french to nothingness (except maybe in northern New-Brunswick)???

    You should really take a deep breath and get some drugs to help with your anger management. Must be awful to go through life with such a jaded attitude and hatred for anything or anybody that doesn’t quite agree with you.

    We have been waging a war for the last 250 years, a war waged against the french in North-America, and in a war, you cannot let your attention waver for a second, hence my rabid approach to the subject.

    That being said, you have a good night.

    Sweet dreams!

    Jean Naimard

    August 20, 2009 at 11:52 pm

  22. Jean writes:

    “To this day, immigrants are blatantly told by immigration officials to disregard Québec language laws.”

    Do you have any documentation for this accusation?

    “The reason is the 300,000 voters who voted in the referendum despite not being residents of Québec.”

    I read the link you provided. (1) Registering voters outside Quebec who legally Quebec citizens is fully in accord with Quebec’s Referendum/Election Act. (2) There is no documentation in the link to your “300,000” claim. Care to tell us where you got that figure?

    Tony Kondaks

    August 21, 2009 at 12:09 am

  23. Do you guys really get anything out of arguing with this cunt? It ceased being fun for me long ago.

    RoryBellows

    August 21, 2009 at 1:09 am

  24. «Do you guys really get anything out of arguing with this cunt? It ceased being fun for me long ago.»

    I take it you’re new to internet blogs, aren’t you?

    Raman

    August 21, 2009 at 3:59 am

  25. Interesting post. I just spent over a month in Quebec and one of my few regrets was that I didn’t really get a great understanding of the socio-political situation to the extent that I wanted. And obviously education is a huge aspect of that. Also, I’m not just saying your post was interesting in the way that many English Canadians say it to to sometimes really mean, “that was fucking shit (but I’m too nice to express my opinion that way).” That being said, as someone of partial African-American decent, I’m pretty offended by your allusion to that variety of segregation. It’s fucking ridiculous, stupid and personally offensive to me for you to compare the plight of the politically dominant and white (did I mention that your people were nearly all white, back in the day?) Quebecers to the marginalized black (did I mention they were black?) Americans of the pre-civil rights era. Basically your opening metaphor was a giant turd that takes away from the rest of your post.

    Davey Anglo

    August 21, 2009 at 4:10 am

  26. You are absolutely delusional Jean. No point in engaging in any more dialogue with you. You provide no facts and only statements which are inflammatory and idiotic.

    par example:

    “We have been waging a war for the last 250 years, a war waged against the french in North-America, and in a war, you cannot let your attention waver for a
    second, hence my rabid approach to the subject”

    That war ended a long time ago and although many deny the fact, history is hisoty as to the outcome.

    “Money that comes from our tax dollars? It’s funny, if we’re so “expensive” for Canada, why do they adamantly do their darnedness to prevent us from leaving? Clearly, Canada gets more than it “puts” in Québec”

    Been there before, Jean, Quebec is a net financial benefactor of confederation. Proofs have been provided in past posts. Lets not start with this
    again.

    “There would be no need to do so once separate, because Québec would be unequivocally a french country, and no more federal government to fuckup things.”

    Sure, a cupful of french speakers amongst a sea of anglos.

    “I can push for stronger measures to insure the proeminence of french.”

    Sure thing, sounds like ethnic cleansing and discrimination against anything anglo. As I said, there is nothing you can do. I doubt anyone intelligent or any importance in government would listen to a “rabid” lunatic such as yourself.

    “The ethnic cleansing that has been going on in the rest of Canada that has basically reduced the french to nothingness (except maybe in northern New-Brunswick)???”

    Sure sure Jean, the OLA, french radio and TV across Canada mandated by the government. The french have been reduced in numbers due to the lack of need to communicate in the language. Please quit blaming people and the feds for dumping on the french language. They have done way more than reasonably necessary to promote the french fact in Canada. You are truly out of touch.

    Please dont respond as I will not, as I said, engage in any further dialogue with an idiot.

    ABP

    August 21, 2009 at 5:00 am

  27. I was thinking of touching on this point myself, but decided not to up to now because I’m not black.

    I am aware that Pierre Vallieres’ comparison between the plights of francos and black Americans dates back to the sixties, when peoples around the world linked their own fights for civil rights to the one then being waged by black Americans; the Catholics of Northern Ireland, for example, made similar comparisons at the time.

    I don’t think the comparison is apt for many reasons. Rather than going into them all now, however, I will confine myself to suggesting that the francos’ situation in Québec and elsewhere in Canada more closely resembles that of Hispanics in the US and particularly that of the Mexican-Americans in the southwestern US. There is no Mexican or Mexican-American aware of the issue who does not know that the area that is now the American Southwest was Mexican until 1848, and that it was taken away from Mexico as a result of an aggressive war waged by the US.

    littlerob

    August 21, 2009 at 5:18 am

  28. …and like the Mexicans of the American Southwest, the French had stolen the land from the indigenous people.

    Oh, I weep for the poor downtrodden imperialist and colonialist French and Spanish!

    Tony Kondaks

    August 21, 2009 at 6:38 am

  29. It depends on the blog and this one is usually one of the better ones, minus the occasional troll infestation.

    RoryBellows

    August 21, 2009 at 8:11 am

  30. “I am aware that Pierre Vallieres’ comparison between the plights of francos and black Americans dates back to the sixties”

    My memory may be fuzzy, hopefully someone can help me out. Wasn’t Vallieres borrowing the idea, if not the term, from an essay Marx wrote? Google isn’t co-operating with me.

    In any case, I generally find any comparisons between any group and those who’s suffering was on the scale of black Americans pre-civil rights movement to be insulting too, but I wouldn’t accuse AFG of doing that in his opening paragragh.

    I think he was only trying to illustrate, quite rightly, that his people don’t actively advocate segregation. Whenever the subject comes up, I always try to prod him and others into admitting that it is to their benefit and that as a result maybe the present system has their tacit approval, but I never get any takers.

    RoryBellows

    August 21, 2009 at 8:21 am


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