AngryFrenchGuy

Can you tell the difference between a Fascist and a National Post Columnist?

with 198 comments

hitler-vs-the-national-post

Come on, now!  I don’t think the good people on Canada’s National Post opinions editorial board are as bad as Nazis.  They do not advocate the extermination of any identifiable human group.  They only want to see those who are wrong (according to them) sternly reprimanded, denied federal funding and stripped of their passports and right of habeas corpus.

I do, however, believe that National Post writers and columnists share with fascists a very inflated sense of their own culture’s achievements and a self-righteous conviction that their own opinions and values are eternal human truths.  They also have a very unhealthy fixation on a few bogeymen on which they can conveniently blame for everything they don’t like about the world.

You disagree?  Well let’s see if you can tell the difference between National Post columnists and history’s great fascists!

Click here or on the pic to take the Quiz!

Written by angryfrenchguy

March 3, 2009 at 2:59 pm

198 Responses

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  1. Bruce,

    “A crime is crime, Antonio, and dishonesty is dishonesty.”

    Ooooh,

    what a black-white, absolutist statement you just made. You must be a a Stephen Harper at heart.

    The world works in degrees. Is the crime of theft considered in equal measure as the crime of murder?

    Antonio

    March 8, 2009 at 10:37 pm

  2. antonio,

    you want and claim quebec wants – i know it is a small distiction but important nonetheless. most people couldn’t tell you the name of who represents them in ottawa or quebec city.

    canada already has a federal government supplemented with 10 autonomous provincial governments plus territorial legislatures who can jump up and down all day but answer to ottawa, the constitution and the courts. if what you want was as simple as you seem to think it would have been done already (a long time ago).

    and how would i know what hardcore wealth-hating leftwingers like bruce think? my fellow canadians want lots of things – some of them even want sovereignty/autonomy/separation/independance or whatever they want to call the struggle with their political masters.

    alberta and newfoundland and saskatchewan now want ottawa to stay out of their pockets. quebec is leading the way in the evolution of the confedaration.

    do you think that m. tremblay, maire de montreal, wants the clowns in quebec city telling him what to do? if you ask him he would like to be king of the city-state. the same way pauline wants to be queen of the new country.

    go ahead and get elected and see how you manage thousand dollar problems with empty pockets. problems i might add that have been created by the very people who suggest that they will solve them – if only you will give them more of your money.

    it’s bullshit and they are politicians.

    johnnyonline

    March 8, 2009 at 10:43 pm

  3. To Marc :

    “I thought you thought Quebec had things to change and things to be sorry for, but the rest of Canada didn’t.”

    Québec has some things to change… so does Canada.

    “But if that’s what you think, then I have no quarrel with you. Unless you think that the 35 % of Quebecers who would vote for Quebec independence today are the “idiots” and the 65 % who wouldn’t are the “bright and reasonable people”.”

    Please… do not put words in my mouth, or thoughts in my head. I do enjoy having discussions with moderate sovereignist. It’s often very refreshing, as in the end, we always realize that we think the same on so many different levels. I profoundly dislike any form of “radical thinking”… the world is gray, not black or white.

    “Well, this hypothesis doesn’t contradict the first one, really. But honestly I do think that Quebec makes anglophone Canadians uneasy in ways that are not reciprocated.”

    It doesn’t contradict it, but it shovels the blame to the other side of the fence. When you think the blames solely (or mostly) belong to the other, your way of seeing various problems/misconceptions/discussions becomes biased.

    “…so when Quebecers act in ways that are perceived to be “non-Canadian”, now that’s when the uneasiness sets.”

    Please define what the “Canadian-way” is. Sorry, but I fail to see this supposed “Canadian-uniformity” you talk about. Pierre Elliot Trudeau is dead. Go tell a BC citizen that he’s exactly like an Albertan, and see if he appreciates. You know what the problem is? We like to think we are “unique” in our difference. Yup, we’re the only ones that have French as our first language… last time I checked, thought, not all anglos had the same opinion about offshore drillings, the value of having a minority Conservatives government, or any other subject for instance. I believe there’s a distinct society in Quebec… just like there’s a distinct society in Alberta, just like there’s a distinct society in PEI… etc.

    “They think it great to have a part of the country that works in another language and with other customs, the way Torontonians, for example, feel proud when they hear that 50% of their city’s residents are born outside the country and when hear dozens of languages just riding on the subway.”

    Is it really what they think, or is it just what you think they think…? Do you really think Torontonians really question themselves that much about us in Quebec? I think that, like us, they go to work everyday, thinking mostly about their own private life. I think they read the newspaper, listen to news report on the TV, and therefore see various angles of the same problem. I think that they basically wonder what we want, but don’t care that much… just like many people in Québec. I think some people think that they think (this is getting confusing) we are like monkeys in a cage : a curiosity. But I think this assumption to be completely false and highly reductive, and also quite insulting for Torontonians in general.

    “while many Canadians would be quite happy to speak French with us as long as it’s clear that they’re doing us a favour.”

    I think this statement is completely false. I think that the vast majority of Canadians are more open-minded that you think they are. I think many of them would like to speak our language, and I think that those that can speak a limited French really enjoy having the opportunity of practicing it when they come here. I think that your vision of how Canadians are is at the very least 20 years too old.

    “and I guess I can see how it makes some of them feel that Quebecers are being ungrateful for the efforts Canadians are making to include them in the country”

    Imagine this : you have a minority in your province. You try your best to accomodate them. You see various political formations, ranging from the right to the left, that try different things to try to reach out to this minority. You do that for a couple of decades… and watch them elect people from a political formation whose main goal is to promote the dismantling of the province election after election. How would you feel, after a couple of decades? I think you’d be annoyed just a bit… Hence the “state what you want or get out!” that we’re starting to hear. I’m not saying it’s right, but I sure understand where it comes from! This is why I keep thinking that we just need to have a better communication with our neighbours.

    “Again, I don’t want my culture to survive. I want Quebec to thrive as a modern society.”

    Softimage… Bombardier… Le Cirque du Soleil… Ubisoft Montréal… Céline Dion… Hydro-Québec… You know what? I think we’re thriving quite alright. I think we’d thrive even more if we’d put a stop to our feelings of insecurity.

    “And more? I’m not sure who the more is, but that’s my problem with Canadian-type multiculturalism: it reduces francophones in Quebec to the level of Ukrainians in Manitoba or Chinese in Vancouver.”

    What I meant by “and more” is the Natives that were here before Europeans, the Irish that came over here in high numbers, but also all these people that came over here afterwards because they were told that this country was a nice place to live. In fact, I think that, although it was probably not your intention, your way if seeing it is a bit rude… To be “reduced” to the same level of Ukrainians and Chinese? Why should we have a better status? They are, after all, citizens of this country like you and me. Why do we need this special status to be happy? Yes… distinct society… well.. there’s a distinct society in CB as well… in Alberta too… in Ontario also, I guess… as well as in the Maritimes… so in the end, everyone is special!

    “But, without trying to dismiss ethno-Canadians’ identity, Quebecers’ sense of being Quebecers is something different”

    Yes… I see your point. To a certain degree, we sometimes seems to be able to ally insecurity with a distorted form of superiority complex. It is kinda odd, I agree.

    “That depends. What do Canadians really do as a team?”

    Well, I’d say we’re pretty good at winning medals in hockey competitions. That’s a start!

    “Our goals often tend to be opposed to each others’.”

    Like…?

    Vinster171

    March 8, 2009 at 11:39 pm

  4. EXCLUSIVE! Read all about it!

    “Does your wishes”… would be better rendered as Do your wishes also reflect the wishes of….

    On the other hand I make so many mistakes here in French every day…… so any mistake in your own experience with your English here… that is totally cool with me. Absoluement tigadou!

    Other than noting that, let me be very CLEAR with you:

    I gave you a more than generous reply as to what I want for Québec and I am not about to start play constitutional mind-games with you Antonio!

    Lets also be CLEAR that my head belongs only to me, so please put your pleasant little cross-examination revolver to someone else’s head, and draw yourself up to your full stature in asking YES or NO, BLACK OR WHITE! Certainly that style seems to suit you well.

    Oh, and incidentally, my fellow Canadians, and that apparently includes yourself, have not authorised me to issue any blanket statements on their behalf as regards their personal wishes!

    Nor do I have the official pan-Canadian poll results on questions that only you have the monumental audacity to constantly throw at whoever posts here who is NOT in favour of your favourite little pet “projet national”

    You might like to go see the play by Jean-Rock Gaudreault “Une maison face au Nord” or perhaps you might like to read it, for a ray of insight maybe.

    Je pense que des Canadians veulent toute sorte de choses et dans la vie on doit toujours accepter des concessions mutuelles. Ce même principe s’applique aussi à vous-même.

    You may fancy yourself a legal scholar/constitutional counsellor quoiqu’il soit, doing some kind of cross examination of the opposition, mais il ne marchera pas avec moi, mon ami.

    As far as Québec goes and what Québec wants, your current negotiator is your Premier, Jean Charest, so maybe you could have a little tête à tête avec lui pour que vous puissiez clarifier quelques de vos questions.

    Without prejudice. You have every right to your personal perspective.

    Merci de ton attention, si gentil.

    Desolé que mon ‘style’ vous dérange. Alors,dormez bien! Vous auriez besoin d’une bonne nuit.

    Bruce

    March 8, 2009 at 11:52 pm

  5. “Quebec wants a decentralized federation with autonomous 10 provinces. It wants the role of the federal government to be reduced to providing monetary policy and an economic union between the provinces. Everything else, like health, education, culture et al. should be the EXCLUSIVE property of the provinces.”

    Ask all the PMs of the different provinces what they think about that. My opinion is that they’d all agree whole-heartedly with all of the above.

    “Quebec also wants recognition for its distinct status as the only French state in North America and additional powers to protect this fact.”

    And this is where we disagree. I stated it above : if Quebec is a distinct society because if it’s French roots, than CB, with its large asian community also is. Alberta most probably is one too… so are the maritimes. Eck, we’ve got 10 distinct societies! Happy now? Your vision of the ROC is highly reductive.

    Vinster171

    March 8, 2009 at 11:53 pm

  6. Right here :

    “quebec is leading the way in the evolution of the confedaration.”

    … and right there :

    “it’s bullshit and they are politicians”

    … we agree!

    Vinster171

    March 8, 2009 at 11:59 pm

  7. Yapa dapa doo! Holy Toledo, Batman!

    ‘Toponymie’,.. hehe! …just testing the waters Anthony!

    Could have perhaps mentioned it this way in my reply to littlerob to see if it elicits your curiosity perhaps?

    A word of advice. When commendably replying to an extract written in French, keep it simple by replying in French, otherwise it may be annoying!

    But what the heck, we can leave the ‘elegant’ thing to another time. I’ve never followed any of your recommendations anyhow, so why should I think you would ever follow suite from mine!

    Glad to know you’ve got a fine little aesthetic sensibility going however! Reassuring indeed!

    Toutes mes bienséa…whoops! .. scratch that last! Caught myself there, nick of time, close one though… Dear god!

    All English post (well sort of) to keep things sort of…. well ‘anglo’, as it were.

    But don’t hold your breath too long…

    I’m headed for a maverick career here.

    Bruce

    March 9, 2009 at 12:16 am

  8. Vinster:

    You’re funny, man!

    You crack me up!

    À propos, qu’est-ce que cette 171 chose?

    C’est peu probable qu’il puisse être 100 + 71 = 171 Vinsters dans le monde! Cent soixante-onze? Tu rigole!

    What’s the scoop, guy?

    Bruce

    March 9, 2009 at 12:31 am

  9. “Quebec also wants recognition for its distinct status as the only French state in North America and additional powers to protect this fact.”

    Sure no problem, an autonomous Quebec could do whatever it wanted to protect its language and culture. Of course, others might not really care!
    Think Louisiana nord.

    “Do you agree with Quebec’s wishes as stated above?”

    If Quebec wants special status and entitlements then Quebec should make its own rules, under its own flag. If Quebec elects to stay in Canada then it should live by equal rules with the other partners. If that is not enough, then the option is to leave.

    “Does your wishes also reflect the wishes of your fellow Canadians?”

    I can only speak for one, but there is growing appeal to this line of thinking with regards to Quebec.

    Of course, this is not reality in the immediate future as you have a liberal majority federalist government. Or could it be Charest is really a closet separatist.. He is after all, a politician.

    ABP

    abp

    March 9, 2009 at 12:44 am

  10. @Marc

    “while many Canadians would be quite happy to speak French with us as long as it’s clear that they’re doing us a favour.”

    Voyons! Quand tu parles avec moi en français, c’est toi qui me fait un service qui me donne une frisson de plaisir. C’est toi qui partage ta belle langue avec moi!

    Oui, je l’ai étudié bien fort, donc, pourquoi pas goûter la fruit si douce?

    Aurais-je pu fait cet effort sans ésperance de la jouissance? Oui j’ai un accent et tu pense qui tu doit m’accomoder en anglais, ce que je ne veux pas du tout!

    Je cherche avoir un rapport avec toi en français même si mon accent d’autre part te dérange un peu.

    Je suis humble! J’aurais voulu que tu me comprennes que je ne suis pas au fond très différent de toi.

    Alors, sois heureux si te plais, si je serai capable de parler au moins un peu en ta langue. Ce sera toujours toi qui me rends cette faveur!

    Mon dieu! Marc! Bon courage!

    Bruce

    March 9, 2009 at 1:11 am

  11. Oh merci merci abp en Saskatchewan!

    I was going to tell you to set your clock ahead one hour, but I forgot that in Saskatchewan you made your own rules and you have your own flag there too!

    So I agree, that you never have to change your clock, and I believe that this is also the wish of ALL other Canadians and Québecois that you should never have to change your clock, and even at that you can still be a Canuck, and have the passport, and Canuck buck also, or at least 50 pennies anyhow, after you pay your tax.

    Good boy, et dites bonjour à ta femme fransaskois pour moi!

    Bruce

    March 9, 2009 at 1:22 am

  12. Vous vous moquez, c’est certain! Vous rigolez!

    Les crimes dont nous avons parlés ici étaient ceux du vol. Le meurtre est tout à fait une autre chose. On ne peut pas comparer des oranges et des pommes.

    La logique vous manque.

    (Tout en français comme vous voulez!)

    Bruce

    March 9, 2009 at 1:38 am

  13. abp,

    thanks for responding to my two questions. So far, you are the only one that has responded. However, you are not a federalist.

    “If Quebec wants special status and entitlements then Quebec should make its own rules, under its own flag. If Quebec elects to stay in Canada then it should live by equal rules with the other partners. If that is not enough, then the option is to leave.”

    yes. You agree that there are differences between Quebec and Canada and that the best option is for both to be separate but amiable countries.

    Antonio

    March 9, 2009 at 8:20 am

  14. it is very telling that johnnyonline and Bruce still have not responded clearly to my two questions. Vinster is the only federalist that has.

    Could it be that they are afraid that Quebec won’t like the answer proving that there are irreconciliable differences between Quebec and Canada?

    Antonio

    March 9, 2009 at 8:23 am

  15. Lucky numbers, Bruce, lucky numbers! To make a long story short, I’ve had a phone number entirely composed of 1s and 7s back in the days (randomly awarded number, btw), my employee number back where I was working to pay my university bills was 1711, and I was born on the 17… don’t know why, but these numbers seem to stick with me!

    Vinster171

    March 9, 2009 at 8:36 am

  16. Vinster,

    “Ask all the PMs of the different provinces what they think about that. My opinion is that they’d all agree whole-heartedly with all of the above.”

    If everybody wanted it, then it would have been done! Sure, the premiers and their respective governments would want it because it would give them more power. But the average Canadian does not seem to want it. Canadians tend to think that the provincial government is useless and that there should be a stronger relationship with the federal government. Quebec is the reverse.

    “And this is where we disagree. I stated it above : if Quebec is a distinct society because if it’s French roots, than CB, with its large asian community also is. Alberta most probably is one too… so are the maritimes. Eck, we’ve got 10 distinct societies! Happy now? Your vision of the ROC is highly reductive.”

    You are the one being reductive. You reduce Quebec to the same level and same statues of other ethnics across Canada. The main difference is that Quebec is the MAJORITY ethnic in its territory. The same could not be said for the others. See the difference?

    Antonio

    March 9, 2009 at 8:37 am

  17. “…proving that there are irreconciliable differences between Quebec and Canada?”

    Proving? A disagreement doesn’t really sound as a proof to me. I know a whole lot of Quebecers (both Sovereignists and Federalists) that don’t agree with Natives positions, but I don’t hear anybody granting them the right to cessionate from Quebec due to “irreconciliable differences”. You know what people do when they disagree? They talk it out REASONABLY.

    Vinster171

    March 9, 2009 at 9:16 am

  18. Marc: ‘’I’d say a majority of Canadians outside of Quebec, when asked, would say that Quebec brings a lot to the country. (Maybe we can ask Acajack if he’d agree.)”’

    Yeah, I’d agree with that. But I’d say that the reasons for which they’d value our presence would vary widely. There is a group that is like Bruce whose “valuing” of Quebec and the francophone element (not exactly the same but that’s how most people see it) is very sincere and based on an honest effort to get to know l’Autre/la Différence, and to cherish it.

    Sorry to say this, but the next group is much larger than the first, and it “values” us simply because it’s always been told/taught to value us. It values us by habit and, to a lesser degree, by nationalistic/nation-building indoctrination.

    Only a very small minority actually doesn’t value us at all and hates our guts.

    That said, the second, largest “passive” group that values us out of habit, in spite of its passive nature about us, can and does get quite irate when we get too uppity and (in their eyes) too big for our britches, or if federal politicians (no matter their origins) are perceived as too attentive to our concerns, whether these are legitimate or not.

    Acajack

    March 9, 2009 at 9:20 am

  19. And by the way, Bruce did answer your question extensively, but I suspect you didn’t like the answer. You seem to think that it all comes down to two simple questions, while the reality is otherwise. While everybody can agree with your first argument, the second is troublesome. Lots of people in Quebec somehow think that the ROC’s only goal is to assimilate us, and it’s those people that I hear when I read your second question. Well… sorry to bring it to you… but the English army is back in the UK and 19th century and the beginning of the 20th are behind us. As long as people will think like that, I don’t think much progress can be done…

    Vinster171

    March 9, 2009 at 9:31 am

  20. Antonio “You are the one being reductive. You reduce Quebec to the same level and same statues of other ethnics across Canada. The main difference is that Quebec is the MAJORITY ethnic in its territory. The same could not be said for the others. See the difference?”

    This is a major problem with Vinster’s logic, and perhaps one of the reasons Marc labelled him as “not too proud to a Quebecer” or something like that.

    He is confusing French-speaking Canada (mostly centred in Quebec but present elsewhere also) a culture which had its origins abroad in France but has evolved into something totally unique and quasi-indigenous here on this continent via mingling with the aboriginal, English, Scottish, Irish, English Canadian and modern American cultures, with the many other immigrant cultures present in Canada.

    The other cultures he referred to such as the Chinese one in BC are, for lack of a better term, “imported”. There is no full-fledged Chinese-Canadian film industry, no Indo-Canadian literature, nor are these things likely to come into existence because these groups do not have the institutions (nor the impetus to create them) that would allow this to happen at some point.

    This is not to say that these cultures have less value than the French Canadian one or any other one, but only to point out differences in their “status” on the ground here in Canada.

    Every country/society has a “culture of convergence” (the tip off is usually what language its public schools teach in).

    Acajack

    March 9, 2009 at 9:35 am

  21. “Sorry to say this, but the next group is much larger than the first, and it “values” us simply because it’s always been told/taught to value us. It values us by habit and, to a lesser degree, by nationalistic/nation-building indoctrination.”

    This is getting tiresome. Please, prove your point, for I believe that the first group you mention is much larger than the second. In fact, here’s how I see it :

    The two groups you mention can be found in Quebec also, but you’d have to change group 2 to “dislikes anglos and still believe the ROC’s main objective is to assimilate us into Good-Canadians”. Since I’m not intellectually dishonest, I’ll tell you that I strongly believe that both group 2, in the ROC and in Quebec, are a minority. But in both places, it is much more vocal than group 1. Following your argumentation, and applying it to the riots we’ve seen in Mtl in the last year (after the first round of the playoff against the Bruins, and after the Montreal-Nord incidents), then people could be allowed to see that Quebec is composed of a majority of hooligans. Is it the case? Clearly, no!

    Please, stop it with the “we sometimes are mean but they are meaner than us!” argument. First, because it is false in our day and age. Second, because it’s a way of pushing aside our responsibilities. And third, because it doesn’t encourage any form of dialogue.

    Vinster171

    March 9, 2009 at 9:40 am

  22. Antonio: “If everybody wanted it, then it would have been done! Sure, the premiers and their respective governments would want it because it would give them more power. But the average Canadian does not seem to want it. Canadians tend to think that the provincial government is useless and that there should be a stronger relationship with the federal government. Quebec is the reverse.”

    Even a non-sovereignist such as myself must agree with Antonio here. ROC provincial premiers know that greater provincial powers would be great career boosters for them, but they also know that it would be a tough sell to their electorate.

    Generally speaking (and I am repeating myself from a thread six months ago), federal-provincial talks in Canada usually feature an initial near-unanimous provincial front against Ottawa. Then, the provinces all back down one-by-one, usually until only Alberta and Quebec are left as sticks in the mud. Alberta always ends up backing down as well, and Quebec (whether the government in Liberal or PQ doesn’t matter) is left all alone not wanting to play ball.

    For the most part, there isn’t much public appetite in the ROC for a greater decentralization of power from the federal government to the provinces. Sure, there are currently some rumblings from Alberta (and Newfoundland of late), but we’ll have to see how that goes and if it really marks a sea change in Canadian politics or if it’s just bravado à la “let those Eastern bastards freeze in the dark” bull that came out of Alberta in the early 80s.

    Acajack

    March 9, 2009 at 9:45 am

  23. “The other cultures he referred to such as the Chinese one in BC are, for lack of a better term, “imported”.”

    Wtf? Okay… so, for you, a society can only be distinct if it has older roots? So you’re denying that the large amount of Chinese immigrants in CB contributes to making it a distinct society. You are denying that Albertans, with their views that are often more slightly to the right, are a distinct society? Differences can only come from language, and not culture… at least, this seems to be your point of view. Because if you truly thought that culture was the most important argument when determining what is a “distinct society”, then you’d have to agree that there are more than two distinct societies in Canada. So yup… it is your view of the ROC that is highly reductive, not my view of what Québec is. The difference between you and me is that I have enough confidence in my people to stop bringing up the “distinct society” thingy everytime I talk to a Canadian.

    “This is a major problem with Vinster’s logic, and perhaps one of the reasons Marc labelled him as “not too proud to a Quebecer” or something like that.”

    You know what? I’m probably prouder of my roots than both of you are. I’m prouder than you guys are because I’m not on my knees begging for recognition and special treatment. This recognition, I will earn on my own with my actions. My culture, I will preserve it by making sure my kids are well aware of their roots. You guys want the government to take actions because you don’t have enough spine to take this responsability by yourselves. You want to put the patient on an artificial breathing machine while he’s still doing very well. Both of you feel so insecure about who you are as Canadians/Quebecers that you feel like the ROC has to grant you something special. Well, sorry for not being like that. Sorry for thinking that we’re not really accepting who we are as long as we keep saying “Hey! Look at me! I speak French! Tell me I’m special!” Are we kids, or grown ups?

    “The main difference is that Quebec is the MAJORITY ethnic in its territory.”

    1- Quebec is a territory, not an ethnic community.

    2- I believe the West-Island is composed of a majority of anglos. I hear they want the Québec government to give them the status of “distinct society”…

    Vinster171

    March 9, 2009 at 10:08 am

  24. You’ll have to scroll down for my answer, Antonio. It’s somewhere after Acajack’s own answer.

    Vinster171

    March 9, 2009 at 10:11 am

  25. Vinster “This is getting tiresome. Please, prove your point, for I believe that the first group you mention is much larger than the second. In fact, here’s how I see it :
    The two groups you mention can be found in Quebec also, but you’d have to change group 2 to “dislikes anglos and still believe the ROC’s main objective is to assimilate us into Good-Canadians”. Since I’m not intellectually dishonest, I’ll tell you that I strongly believe that both group 2, in the ROC and in Quebec, are a minority. But in both places, it is much more vocal than group 1.”

    Sorry Vinster, but I probably know English-speaking Canada or the ROC better than almost any other francophone on this forum. I was born there, grew up there, went to elementary and secondary school and university there (all in English), worked there for many years. I had dinner there with English-speaking Canadians in Ontario no later than… last night.

    I can tell you from personal experience that Group 2 is by far the largest group. For the most part, they don’t know much about Quebec/francophones. They’re not evil because of that, it’s just reality. Actually, I’d say it’s a pretty good situation given the lack of knowledge that they actually value our contribution to this country rather than hate our guts. But it is unlikely, for most Canadians in the ROC, to go beyond passive acceptance. People just have other things to do in their lives and different interests other than to get to know the francophone side of their country better.

    You said that the two groups exist in (francophone) Quebec. I disagree, as we are in a completely different situation geographically, politically and demographically.

    Francophone Quebec is grossly (grossièrement) characterized by a split between the anglophobic and the anglophilic. Degrees vary within in each of the two groups but for the most part the two groups know very little about the ROC (even to the point of ignoring the existence of many hundreds of thousands of fellow francophones in the other provinces – with the possible exception of Acadians in NB). Even in Gatineau many people are completely clueless with driving directions in Ottawa beyond the first few blocks of downtown, or are totally shocked when they meet francophones who live in Ontario.

    So in Quebec you have one group that is antsy about English and its place (they would say encroachment) in Quebec. They couldn’t care less about how English Ontario or Alberta are, they just don’t want English to occupy any more territory than it already does in Quebec.

    The other group sees English (and by extension English-speaking Canada and even English-speaking Quebec) as having a civilizing influence on French Canadians, whom they see as being perhaps not inferior, but certainly a tad irresponsible. These are the people who call their garage Garage Henri Garage Limitée/Limited in St-Hyacinthe. There is a mild self-hating aspect to this phenomenon, or at least an insecurity/inferiority complex going on. Surprinsingly enough, this group generally doesn’t really know much more about the ROC than the first anglophobic one (perhaps even less), and feels just as lost (fish out of water) when dropped into the anglo ROC, although contrary to the first group (which most of the time would blame the fact that they feel like a foreigner in Toronto or even Ontario on the shortcomings of Canadian federalism), they will always blame themselves for being an ignorant rube that never bothered to learn English at some point during their 40 or 50-year existence in Ste-Chosebinne-de-Whatever.

    One can imagine where these two groups generally end up politically, but interestingly enough I would say that some federalists and sovereignists are found in both groups, although probably given the linguistic reality there are probably more anglophobic federalists (who are always willing to give Canada yet another chance) than anglophilic sovereignists.

    Acajack

    March 9, 2009 at 10:14 am

  26. It has more to do with power than pride. Don’t you think that the ancestors of millions of Franco-Americans and other French-Canadians in the ROC were just as proud as you (or anyone in Quebec for that matter)? Heck, we’re talking about the exact same people as today’s Franco-Québécois, cut from the exact same cloth, so to speak?

    It is patently obvious that good old individual willpower isn’t enough. In the case of francophones in the ROC, we can see what a situation of “semi-power” leads to: semi-assimilation. Whereas in the U.S., the virtual absence of any collective power for francophones has lead to near-total assimilation within a few generations.

    You, are anyone else for that matter, are not strong enough to counter combined pressures which are economic, institutional, political, social, etc. that lead various peoples of the world to assimilate to another group.

    Luckily for you, francophones in Quebec have been able to acquire and wield enough collective power to be able to put a society in place to allow people such as yourself to some day scream from the rooftops that if your kids speak French (and especially speak French as adults), that you’ll owe it all to yourself.

    Sounds vaguely like today’s young generation of accomplished women who are radically anti-feminist and think they owe absolutely nothing to the previous generations of bra-burners, etc.

    Acajack

    March 9, 2009 at 10:30 am

  27. Vinster,
    It has more to do with power than pride. Don’t you think that the ancestors of millions of Franco-Americans and other French-Canadians in the ROC were just as proud as you (or anyone in Quebec for that matter)? Heck, we’re talking about the exact same people as today’s Franco-Québécois, cut from the exact same cloth, so to speak?

    It is patently obvious that good old individual willpower isn’t enough. In the case of francophones in the ROC, we can see what a situation of “semi-power” leads to: semi-assimilation. Whereas in the U.S., the virtual absence of any collective power for francophones has lead to near-total assimilation within a few generations.

    You, are anyone else for that matter, are not strong enough to counter combined pressures which are economic, institutional, political, social, etc. that lead various peoples of the world to assimilate to another group.

    Luckily for you, francophones in Quebec have been able to acquire and wield enough collective power to be able to put a society in place to allow people such as yourself to scream from the rooftops that if your kids speak French (and especially speak French as adults), that you’ll owe it all to yourself.

    Sounds vaguely like today’s young generation of accomplished women who are radically anti-feminist and think they owe absolutely nothing to the previous generations of bra-burners, etc.

    Acajack

    March 9, 2009 at 10:32 am

  28. “Sounds vaguely like today’s young generation of accomplished women who are radically anti-feminist and think they owe absolutely nothing to the previous generations of bra-burners, etc.”

    Question : are bra-burners still useful nowadays? Young accomplished women know that the 50s are behind them. They know that things won’t start going backwards unless they let it, but they also know that the time for extreme measures has long passed. They know it is their responsibility, as INDIVIDUALS, to show they were worthy of that fight.

    I know my history. I am thankful to those people that allowed us to have the society we have nowadays. Most of them weren’t even sovereignist. But that time has passed. They have given us the power to keep this language and culture alive by ourselves. It’s now up to us, AS INDIVIDUALS, to show we were worthy of their fight. That’s where I stand.

    Vinster171

    March 9, 2009 at 10:48 am

  29. “Wtf? Okay… so, for you, a society can only be distinct f it has older roots? So you’re denying that the large amount of Chinese immigrants in CB contributes to making it a distinct society. You are denying that Albertans, with their views that are often more slightly to the right, are a distinct society? Differences can only come from language, and not culture… at least, this seems to be your point of view”

    Culture is not solely defined by language, but it is one of the strongest determining factors, if only because one generally needs to understand a culture’s language in order to partake in most of its aspects (the notable exception being cuisine).

    Japanese-Brazilians (and there are millions of them) are much more likely to know Paulo Coelho than they are to know Haruki Murakami. Does that make them “less Japanese”? I suppose, but what does it matter? They are living in Brazil, speak Portuguese, and that is their home. They are Japanese-Brazilians, not *Japanese*. Probably in a few generations, they will be just Brazilians, point final.

    Acajack

    March 9, 2009 at 10:52 am

  30. Most societies in the world have minorities within them. The minorites’ existence does not nullify the existence of the larger society.

    Canadian society has a fairly large component within it that speaks French and does not really recognize itself in Hockey Night in Canada on CBC, Margaret Atwood, Trailer Park Boys, Corner Gas, “I AM Canadian” commercials, and the Barenaked Ladies. But that doesn’t mean that (English-)Canadian society doesn’t exist and even that it’s not legitimate.

    The same is true of Quebec. The existence of the diverse West Island (which is actually quite close to being one third anglo, one third franco and one third allo BTW) does not negate the existence of larger, identifiable francophone Quebec society.

    Acajack

    March 9, 2009 at 10:58 am


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