AngryFrenchGuy

Old Montreal vs English Montreal

with 27 comments

Montreal language stormA couple of years ago I was having a beer on the Main with a friend from Alberta and her McGill buddies. One girl who was on her way back to New York seized the opportunity to ask the Montrealer that I am a question that had been puzzling her for the four years she’d been living in Montreal.

-So why are all the signs in French if Montrealers are mostly English-speaking?

Granted, this kid was not McGill’s brightest student. But the fact is that after FOUR YEARS in Montreal this girl was under the impression that Montreal was a city where French-speakers are a minority.

In this morning’s La Presse, André Pratte reacts to the debate on the increasing number of businesses in Montreal that are unable to serve their clientele in French: “In a field as important and delicate as language, the State of Québec cannot base it’s decisions solely on the basis of media stories and the impressions of citizens.”

La Presse is the last Montreal newspaper to still have it’s offices in Old Montreal, the quaint folkloric part of town with the “French Touch” delights children and tourists.

While André Pratte and his paper are satisfied with a storied past and a comfortable present, the paper’s former Anglo neighbor on St-Jacques Street, The Gazette, has moved to Ste-Catherine street where it right at the center the dynamic and aggressive revival of English Montreal that is starting to make some French-speakers uncomfortable.

I don’t want to rain on anybody’s parade, but English Montreal’s revival also means gently but surely pushing out Montreal’s French-speaking majority out to the suburbs and the periphery. Geographically. Culturally. Economically.

Mr Pratte demands more hard numbers on the linguistic situation in Montreal. The AngryFrenchGuy supports that. Mr. Pratte could also take the metro to McGill and have a look for himself.

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Written by angryfrenchguy

January 22, 2008 at 8:59 pm

27 Responses

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  1. [...] Check out the final product here [...]

    The angry french guy

    January 23, 2008 at 8:15 pm

  2. French guys are (In my experience) often Angry. But when translated in to French, many angry sounding words tend to have a soothing effect on the English ear. With their lilting tones and rambling religious inspired swear words, whenever conversation devolves into shouts I feel like I am in Sunday mass, about to make peace with the creator. Perhaps English Canada wants to keep Quebeckers down because they are so fond of Hearing French people complaining? If you simply complained through and interpretor (even your accents lull us into a peaceful sleep) one with little to no passion or expressive intonation (Joe Clarke anyone?No, he would have to learn French first) The English would start taking you seriously.

    Ryan

    January 24, 2008 at 9:59 am

  3. ryan,

    it is better to remain silent and be considered a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. take it from somebody who knows.

    johnnyonline

    February 16, 2008 at 9:02 pm

  4. LOL, don’t take life too seriously there chumpy-o.
    Take a kitkat break or something.

    Ryan

    February 17, 2008 at 11:40 am

  5. right you are then. c’mon! attack me with that banana!
    bang!

    johnnyonline

    February 20, 2008 at 8:27 pm

  6. Jeez. The English are pushing francophones out of the city?! You can’t be serious! The francophones are moving because they’re finally catching up with the American dream of a home or McMansion in the suburbs, and in their case, where everyone is Quebecois (read white) and they don’t have to be reminded by anglos that there’s life outside fortress Quebec. But of course, the real reason is that the anglos are pushing them out. Just like we kept them from being businesspeople last century. Get real!
    We’re having an English revival? I didn’t know. Let’s take it to the max: the City-state of Montreal, part of the Canadian federation.

    fed-up montrealer

    April 19, 2008 at 9:48 am

  7. And another thing. Why the hell does Montreal “have” to be a “French” city? Who decided that? Most rational people would think saying this is a bilingual or even multilingual city is a more natural reflection of our demographics. Why don’t you Quénazis concentrate on keeping Quebec City pure and germ-free?
    Maybe that, albeit kinda dumb, girl from Alberta didn’t clue into Montreal’s “French”ness because she never actually heard any — just a lot of nasal Quebecois quack-quack-tabercak-quacking. Maybe if the Montrealais could actually speak real French, the world might actually notice.

    fed-up montrealer

    April 19, 2008 at 10:22 am

  8. What I find adorable is the way Anglo Montrealers posture as great defenders of the “bilingualness” of Montreal and never aknowledge that before bill 101 French was well on it’s way to being wiped out of Montreal except as a folkloric artefact.

    The Parti québécois, the indépendantistes and bill 101 saved Montreal’s bilingual caracter.

    It’s eating you up inside, isn’t it?

    angryfrenchguy

    April 19, 2008 at 11:31 am

  9. So, you’re saying that Montreal is bilingual city and not a French one? Pauline doesn’t think so.

    fed-up montrealer

    April 19, 2008 at 8:19 pm

  10. Angryfrenchguy,

    I just discovered your blog (through Fagstein), and I must say, good job. I’m glad that you’ve created this forum so that anglophones get the opportunity to read your point of view. I’d hope everyone could agree that we could all use a bit more (civilized) conversation across the linguistic divide.

    Anyway, with regards to the matter at hand:

    It’s a shame some university students choose to live such insular, “College experience” lives while in Montreal, but by spending all one’s time around that campus and downtown, I could see how one could get the impression that everyone speaks English.

    I think the real issue behind this English Montreal revival has to do, at least in part, with the idea of Downtown.

    Who is it for? Ideally, I’d think we’d want citizens living downtown, and those from all over the metropolis streaming down to spend some time. The centre of town should provide access to the arts, public space and opportunities for contact with others. Montreal is lucky to some extent because that still happens; in a lot of American cities, sprawl (created by sixty years of people heading to the suburbs) has left the centre lifeless. That suburban dream has touched Montreal, though. Living downtown can easily become too expensive for most folks. Francophones are probably moving out for cheaper houses on bigger lots; much like wealthy anglophones head to the West Island. I say this as an urban planning student who is noticing that the same thing is still happening all over North America. And if people are leaving the island, then the downtown becomes less and less of a place that the average Montrealer can easily travel to, so what’s left is mainly for well-off locals and visitors only, regardless of language. Since Montreal attracts so many tourists and international students, these shops and attractions (so close to McGill) must be able to traffic in English. Globalisation requires the same from the companies that occupy downtown as well. Like kétaine souvenir shops, dreary office towers or seas of parking lots, English-only living might be the price we pay downtown for wanting to be a Global City with lots of tourism, without making sure it’s still a city we Montrealers want to live in.

    I acknowledge that not too long ago a person shopping downtown could not get served in French. It took awhile, but I now see Bill 101 as useful and indeed, vital. But perhaps the real key, as you alluded to, is for francophones to demand to be served in French downtown. And for that, I suggest that we all need opportunities to live and work there without feeling we’re trespassing on private property. So if there is an English revival downtown, I’m not sure it’s geared to English Montrealers like me. A downtown that isn’t authentic and citizen-friendly doesn’t help anyone in the long run.

    Tyler

    April 19, 2008 at 10:08 pm

  11. Found this blog via Fagstein. Wonderful!

    It is indeed pathetic that Anglo students from out-of-province can live and study downtown for 4 years and never venture out of the ghetto. It is equally strange that Anglo tourists rarely venture into the vast Francophone area beyond the malls of Ste. Catherine street. Nonetheless, that lack of curiosity can’t be cured by Law 101. I think we just have to accept the fact that most of our visitors will be Anglos.

    I am an Anglo and because I live here in Montreal, I start my exchanges in French – even downtown. After all, in Quebec, 95% of the population speaks French, while only 40% knows some English. I want to communicate and if one bothers to notice, the city is full of young people from the regions and allophone immigrants who are going through francisation programs.

    I disagree that Anglos are pushing Francos out of the city – people like to raise their kids in the suburbs. There are plenty of Francophones downtown – and also in traditionally Anglo boroughs in order to compensate for the restrictions of Law 104.

    I also don’t see a dynamic and aggressive revival of English Montreal downtown. Just looks like noisy tourists and students. What I do notice over and over again is a huge number of bilingual Montrealers especially under about 45. The Anglos want to stay in Quebec and the Francos want to be able to travel. I have no problem with Montreal as an officially French city – I don’t want to negotiate every exchange. If many of its inhabitants are bilingual, even better – for tourism, for traveling, for accessing another point of view.

    Michelle

    April 21, 2008 at 12:02 pm

  12. As a tourist who just spent a week in Montreal for the first time in 25 years, I thought I would chime in to say how impressed I was with what I experienced as a truly bilingual city. I tried to speak French whenever I entered a restaurant or business, but people immediately switched to English when they heard that me speak. I sometimes found it frustrating because I really wanted to practice French. In Paris, for example, I just have to struggle for a while with the language and then it comes back. In Montreal, I never got to that point because everyone — with the exception of 2 or 3 people I met all week — totally let me off the hook. However, I really had so much respect for the citizens of Montreal who seemed to this outsider to be comfortable in both languages.

    Last time I was in Montreal, 25 years ago, I found it to be much less friendly and accessible. Now I would definitely recommend it as a travel destination.

    Dominick

    August 23, 2008 at 3:00 pm

  13. This really says something about society. I was told that it was all French. And now I learn that there’s English. The French culture is being lost. What a social issue.

    They have beer and whisky in Alberta.

    I never went to Montreal and kind of wish I did

    March 29, 2009 at 5:38 pm

  14. I found this blog through Fagstein as well. Hey AngryFrenchGuy, are you angry because you are the poor cousin of the French or are you angry because you are a loser and you want to blame it on the “Anglos”?

    Thank You Again

    April 10, 2009 at 8:18 pm

  15. RE: Thank you again,

    I guess he’s angry because he’s often read stupid comments like yours… “Poor cousin of the French”?? This means that english-Canadians and Americans are poor cousins of the Brits. Does this kind of exchange lead us anywhere? No.

    As for the “loser” comment… since you seem to be unable to seriously discuss a subject except by throwing insults, I guess the real loser is not angryfrenchguy.

    Schmorgluf

    April 21, 2009 at 5:21 pm

  16. Well in 1842 the Anglophone Population of the City of Montreal was a majority accounting for 60% of the City’s population. It’s a shame that the Anglophones of Montreal are no longer the majority in the City of Montreal. In 1842 the same year that the Anglophone Population of the City of Montreal was a majority Anglophone City of 60%, the Anglophone Population of the City of Quebec City comprised of 40% of the City’s population and likewise it’s a shame that Anglophones are no longer a major minority . I found that these demographics in both the City of Montreal and the City of Quebec City were very fair and should have remaind ever since. I am in favour of restoring the Anglophone population of the City of Montreal back to it’s 1842 population of 60% and restoring the Anglophone population of the City of Quebec City to it’s 1842 population of 40%.

    I found these demographics reading the articles done by Claude Belanger of the Department of History at Marianopolis College

    Anglophones Quebec History
    Events, Issues
    and Concepts of
    Quebec History
    http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger/quebechistory/events/anglos.htm

    So had this girl lived in 1842, she would have been right.

    God Save The Queen
    Long Live a United Canada

    UnitedEmpireLoyalist

    May 10, 2009 at 6:31 pm

  17. I have just stumbled on this AFG web site and appreciate AFG making the effort to run this site and share his honestly held views and willingness to debate them. I do not share all of these views though my perspective is different.

    However, for the record, it is my recall that Montreal’s population had a majority English-speaking population between c.1830s to the 1860s, due in large part to large scale emigration from the British Isles in the post-Napoleonic war period, and from Ireland during the famine of the 1840s. The boom in commerce and manufacturing in Montreal of the 1860s, particularly following Confederation when the city become the metropolis of Canada in the full sense of the word, led to a massive influx of francophones from the countryside which resulted in the city becoming a majority francophone speaking city, though with a very significant English speaking population, approx 30%, which was maintained up till the 1970s. (My understanding is that this percentage is more like 20-25% today – still a very considerable percentage (hardly an insignificant minority) and overall a large number of people, larger than the population of some of Canada’s smaller provinces.)

    In the 1950s, when the city population was forecast to rise to approx 7m by 2000, due in large part to economic growth and immigration, it was realised that Montreal would once again become a majority English speaking city and that the French language was threatened in the city and perhaps too across the province – hence political uprest (also against the church and pro-secular governance) in the 60s followed by Bill 22 in the early 1970s by the provincial liberals to protect French, which also discriminated against the use of English, followed by the even tougher Bill 101 of the Parti Quebecois in 1976. The result has been that the city’s growth has slowed down significantly and today it has grown a little and remains majority French-speaking, but that Montreals’ projected economic and population growth switched, for better or worse, to the Toronto/Golden Horseshoe region.

    In the long term, if Montreal grows economically and population-wise, it is very likely to reduce – to some degree – its French-speaking character, at least on the island and inner city where most newcomers gravitate too, as can be observed today.

    If Montreal wants to remain or become a majority French speaking city for ever, it may only achieve this by ensuring little if any economic growth and immigration. However, I don’t think this is the long term desire of most Montrealers otherwise the fortunes and vibrancy of the city may go into serious decline.

    The challenge today is for Montreal to maintain its distinct mix of cultural influences and character, but to find a new positive way to do this other than by the legislative approach enacted since the early 1970s which limit the rights of both English and French speaking people in Quebec.

    I don’t think this is the ultimate desire of AFG or of most of those who contribute on this web site.

    JPW

    May 16, 2009 at 9:53 pm

  18. On rereading my post, I want to emphasise that on my last line, I meant that AFG and most contributors do not support laws that limit the rights of English and French speaking people in Quebec – and that this forum is intended to explore alternate positive approaches for all people to live together in a positive spirit in Montreal. I hope I am not mistaken.

    JPW

    May 16, 2009 at 9:58 pm

  19. In today’s society we are being restricted to do certaint things and i think it is good to do so. Why are we being restricted to do this or that ? Usually it is because the population (the majority of it) wouldn’t act intelligently or wouldn’t care about specific issue’s.

    Why can’t we drive faster ? Why can’t we drink beer while driving ? Why can’t walk around with guns ? Why can’t we throw our trashes out on the street ? etc…

    All of the above mentionned are laws or regulations to force everyone to act accordingly even if some people will break these rules but then pay for it if caught.

    In the case of the language laws in Quebec, it is to protect the french language which is fragile. It is fragile because it finds itself in the middle of an ocean of nearly 300 millions english speaking population which language is the dominant one on the planet and which political system (capitalism) allows the biggest ones to eat the smalles ones based on enoconomical reasons.

    I would prefer not having laws but then we would need the help of the strong quebec english population to make sure they are on our side and that they also participate fully in the french/Quebec cultural world. Is it the case ? I don’t think so. So many of them are fighting the laws because they wish to get their share of immigrants, pex example, does that sends good vibes to the fragile majority ? I don’t think so.

    Why the english speaking people haven’t made much of an effort to participate actively and proudly in the the french cultural world ?

    Steve_36

    May 26, 2009 at 10:24 am

  20. You bring good points and i dont disagree with you in general but i also question the english community for never bringing any alternative approaches for a better balance beetwen both communities and make efforts to ensure the french language is well protected. Instead, they only blame the language laws.

    Steve_36

    May 26, 2009 at 10:31 am

  21. I’d like to know your definition of “real french”. Apparently, you’ve never met a French person, because if you did, you’d learn that even the “real Frenchs” don’t speak the “international” french… Each area/country has its own expressions and pronunciation. Still, I hope you knew it before you read my comment. I’d like to write a longer text, but I assume you’re already aware of your over-generalization (Nazis? Ouate de phoque?)

    Garry

    July 4, 2009 at 5:15 pm

  22. Steve_36

    The French Language was never threanted in the Province of Quebec, infact it was protected by the British under the Constitution Act of 1867. The Constitution act of 1867 Established both English and French Languages as Co-Official Languages of both the Dominion of Canada and it’s Province of Quebec. The Quebecois had no right to create such laws as Bill 101 (Charter of the French Language) and Bill 22 (Official Language Act) to discriminate against the English Language and to illegaly and unconstitutionaly remove it as an Official Language of the Province of Quebec. The Province of Quebec should return to being a Bilingual Province, just like the Province of New Brunswick and be a place that both English and French Languages are treated equaly and have the same rights and privileges under the law.

    Constitution Act of 1867
    Use of English and French Languages
    Section 133

    Either the English or the French Language may be used by any Person in the Debates of the Houses of the Parliament of Canada and of the Houses of the Legislature of Quebec: and both those Languages shall be used in the respective Records and Journels of those Houses: and either of those Languages may be used by any Person or in any Pleading or Process in or issuing from any Court of Canada established under this Act, and in or from all or any of the Courts of Quebec.

    The Acts of the Parlimanet of Canada and of the Legislature of Quebec shall be printed and published in both those Languages.

    Consitution Act of 1867
    http://www.solon.org/Consitutions/Canada/English/c_1867.html

    The Demographics of the Province of Quebec must change. The Current Anglophone Population of the Province of Quebec is about 10% of the Province’s populaiton. The number of Anglo-Quebecers living in the Province of Quebec is far too low to ensure the security and protection of their community and of the English Language and in the best intrests of the Anglo-Quebecers that their population is restored to it’s 1827 demographic of 25% of the Province’s population (15% Increase). The Demographics of the City of Montreal also must change. The Current Anglophone Population of the City of Montreal is about 18% of the City’s population. The number of Anglo-Quebecers living in the City of Montreal is far too low to ensure it’s security and protection of their ocmmunity and of the English Language and in the best intreasts their population should be restored back to it’s 1842 demographic of 61% of the City’s population (49% Increase) and the Demographics of the City of Quebec must also change as well. The Current Anglophone Population of the City of Quebec is about 2% of the City’s population and this is the most shamefull number of them all and we should be disgusted that this was ever allowed to happen. The number of Anglo-Quebecers living in the City of Quehbec is a disgrace and is far too low and to ensure it’s security and protection and of the English Language and in it’s best intrests the population should be restored to it’s 1842 demographic of 43% of the City’s population (41% Increase).

    The sooner that more English Speakers move to the Province of Quebec and restore the population of Anglo-Quebecers from an insignificant minnority to a large and poweful minnority the better. The Province of Quebec needs to stop the assimiliation of Anglo-Quebecers and to stop their dwindling numbers. Only a large Anglo-Quebec Community will it’s persecution at the hands of the Quebecois Voters who keep on voting in the most extremist anti-English Quebecois Bigots will stop. All Anglo-Quebecers who left the Province from the 70′s to the present day must return with their extended families to the Province to restore the popultion of Anglo-Quebecers to their rightfull demographics.

    BOTH ENGLISH AND FRENCH LANGUAGES IN THE PROVINCE OF QUEBEC MUST HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES.

    Restore English as an Official Language of the Province of Quebec.

    Unnaceptable Demographics

    Province of Quebec
    80% Francophone
    10% Anglophone

    City of Montreal
    70% Francophone
    18% Anglophone

    City of Quebec
    97% Francophone
    2% Anglophone

    Acceptable Demographics

    Province of Quebec
    75% Francophone
    25% Anglophone

    City of Montreal
    61% Anglophone
    39% Francophone

    City of Quebec
    57% Francophone
    43% Anglophone

    BTW Steve_36 if the only way the French Language can be protected in the Province of Quebec with type of laws like Bill 101 (Charter of the French Language) and Bill 22 (Official Language Act) and other discrimintory measures aimed at the English Language, then it should not be protected at all and should be allowed to die out with dignity and Quebecois should just assimiliate into Anglo-Quebecers and adopt the English Language as their own.

    GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
    LONG LIVE A UNTED CANADA

    UnitedEmpireLoyalist

    July 13, 2009 at 3:35 pm

  23. you just prove you want french language die in quebec so bill101 is a good law, in fact.

    québecfrançais

    July 30, 2009 at 11:03 am

  24. QuebecFrancais

    Bill 101 (Charter of the French Language) and other such related laws are in direct violation of the Constitution Act of 1867 which proclaimed both English AND French as Official Language of the Dominion of Canada and it’s Province of Quebec. The French Language was protected as an Official Language of the Dominion of Canada and likewise the English Language as an Official Language of the Province of Quebec.

    I support the Old Laws of the Dominion of Canada when it comes to the issue of Language. The Constitution Act of 1867 and the Manitoba Act of 1870. These Laws made both English and French as Official Languages of the Dominion of Canada and it’s Province of Quebec and Manitoba and yes I even support the restoration of French as an Official Language of the Province of Manitoba just like how I support the restoration of English as an Official Language of the Province of Quebec.

    Constitution Act of 1867
    Use of English and French Languages
    Section 133

    Either the English or the French Language may be used by any Person in the Debates of the Houses of the Parliament of Canada and of the Houses of the Legislature of Quebec and both those Languages shall be used in the respective Records and Journels of those Houses: and either of those Languages may be used by any Person in or any Pleading or Process, in or issuing from any Court of Canada established under this Act, and in or from all or any of the Courts of Quebec.

    The Acts of the Parliament of Canada and of the Legislature of Quebec shall be printed and published in both those Languages.

    http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/ca_1867.html

    Manitoba Act of 1870
    Use of English and French Languages
    Section 23

    Either the English or the French Language may be used by any Person in the Debates of the Houses of the Legislature and both those Languages shall be used in the respective Records and Journels of those Houses: and either of those Languages may be used by any Person in or any Pleading or Process, in or issuing from any Court of Canada established under the Constitution Act, 1867, or in or from all or any of the Courts of the Province.

    The Acts of the Legislature shall be printed and published in both those Languages.

    http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/ma_1870.html

    The French Language must be restored as an Official Language of the Province of Manitoba just like what it was meant to be under the Manitoba Act of 1870 and likewise the English Language must be restored as an Official Language of the Province of Quebec just like it was meant to be under the Constitution Act of 1867.

    BTW. I am not saying the French Language should die in the Province of Quebec, what I am saying is that if the French Langauge can only surive in the Province of Quebec by oppressing and persecuting the English Language by such laws as Bill 101 (Charter of the French Language), Bill 22 (Official Language Act) and other related laws and having a Language Police (OLF) to enforce these laws then the French Language has no buisness of surving in the Proivnce of Quebec. For over 200 years before these anti-English Language Laws were created both English and French Languages co-existed, it was not a happy marriage by a long shot but both Languages co-existed side by side and should be side by side agian in both the Provinces of Manitoba and Quebec.

    The Province of Quebec is not just a French Society but also an English Society. Both English and French Languages and Cultures made the Province of Quebec what it is today and just like how both English and French Languages and Cultures made the Provinc of Manitoba. The Province of Manitoba is not just an English Society but also a French Society as well. The French Language was illegaly removed by Anglophone Extremists in the Province of Manitoba and just like how the English Language was iillegaly removed by Francophone Extremists in the Province of Quebec, and both shoueld be restoed ASAP.

    GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
    LONG LIVE A UNTED CANADA

    UnitedEmpireLoyalist

    July 30, 2009 at 7:05 pm

  25. Okay, je crois que vous ne comprenez pas que le Québec est le dernier état francophone d’Amérique du Nord. Les anglophones ne sont pas en danger nullement d’un point de vue démographique.

    P.S. Sorry, I do not speak english ;)

    haha

    March 19, 2010 at 10:32 pm

  26. Under UEL thinking, the same logic should apply to the anglo of Montréal!

    PB

    Peanut butter

    July 10, 2011 at 10:32 pm

  27. Les quebec anglophone sans pas en dangers, parsqu’ill vont trouver un autre facon d’exister. Mais c’est sa le problem, we were brothers and sisters years ago, arguing, hating, laughing, loving, and defending this province and country. On c’est que c’est l’origine Francophone, mais ca fait pas de sense to make NOT WEST ANGLOS, but Montreal, or Quebec anglos that helped shape whatever Quebec became today. I understand they should have majority, but are we not a huge minority worth helping out? Quelqun a dis ici que les quebecer anglophone font rien pour proteger la langue francais. Ben, for me I didn’t even realize we could have power before protecting it. What does protect it even mean? If it means I must speak it, and speak it only, to protect it, well I’m sorry I just can’t do it. It woulda made sense if i just spoke Filipino (tagalog) as a first language, but it was English, therefore I have a strong affinity for the English group. Maybe it might not seem like that with English Leaders (are there any more left anyway? haha, Jean Charest doesn’t seem like a sympathetic to us), but if someone asked me would it just be easier if the French went away, I’d say they’d be taking that bigger part of Montreal with them (so no). Montreal is Not owned by “the French”, nor is it owned by us “the English”. it’s owned by both of us, because we both parented it’s growth. POURQUOI we CANT just BE DES AMIS! … childish, mais vraiment i mean it :(

    -Dawson College Student (who does like to go to St-Sulpice Bar and Old Port and the cool shit they have near Jean Talon and les Tam tam)

    Anonymous

    March 16, 2012 at 3:00 pm


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